CL Discussion

[knucklehead7]

Since when did the RSL become more trade-friendly than the Current League?

Posting is down. Articles are non-existent. Trading is down. Trade talks are down judging from some of the comments in this thread.

It's pretty disheartening since I'm not sure what I've done different to cause the issue. I added the NPB and an extra day of simming like people requested and haven't changed anything to the best of my knowledge.

Also, I'll apologize for making this post now as I don't want it to come across as manipulative. I had thought about making a thread to discuss it over the last few weeks but figured it was best to wait until the end of the season.

I don't see any of the leagues being in competition with each other and think that all of them can thrive here, which makes me feel like it's more of an issue with the CL. If people are not interested anymore, I'd rather people speak up and voice their issues than have people feel obligated and proceed.

[Tecmo]

Everyone is still stunned that Kansas City won the championship last season.

[Felix]

Personally, I blame the death of Brett Jackson. Clearly he should be resurrected

[Buane]

Posting is down.

IRC contributes very heavily to this. A lot of discussion we used to have on the boards takes place 24/7 in IRC these days, so that might be one reason the league seems less "busy" than it once was. As someone who's in IRC a lot, the CL is certainly the topic de jour every jour.

[PHIPhillies]

ive certainly posted less but its mostly due to lack of time and lack of a computer, and its certainly hard to write an article and format it. my team playing like crap certainly doesnt help either. aside from that i think im pretty good bout keeping up w/ my team. im not in irc as much but we certainly talk bout the cl alot as buane posted. the issue w/ the trades prolly hss to do w/ us knowing each other better, i for examplewill prolly never trade w/ buane again. hes just too smart and im too cautious bout getting ripped off. thats just one example. id trade w/ blitz more oftwn, but hes got nothing to trade for

[Becks6]

ive certainly posted less but its mostly due to lack of time and lack of a computer, and its certainly hard to write an article and format it. my team playing like crap certainly doesnt help either. aside from that i think im pretty good bout keeping up w/ my team. im not in irc as much but we certainly talk bout the cl alot as buane posted. the issue w/ the trades prolly hss to do w/ us knowing each other better, i for examplewill prolly never trade w/ buane again. hes just too smart and im too cautious bout getting ripped off. thats just one example. id trade w/ blitz more oftwn, but hes got nothing to trade for

I actually completely agree with the reasons stated above as having an effect on trade frequency. When you know that an owner will not make a deal unless he is CLEARLY being over-compensated, then trade discussion won't even happen, much less an actual deal go down. There is a handful of owners that I have a very easy time haggling with, but other than that, meh.

[thebishop]

IRC contributes very heavily to this. A lot of discussion we used to have on the boards takes place 24/7 in IRC these days, so that might be one reason the league seems less "busy" than it once was. As someone who's in IRC a lot, the CL is certainly the topic de jour every jour.

While I think this is probably true (I dont hit up IRC, so I'll take your word for it ), I think the problem is more that people aren't taking the time to make a post now and then about their team in the CL, but make time to do so in other leagues, despite the fact there are several solid pennant races going on.

9 team owners haven't posted even once this year, one of which leads his division, and 3 others are pretty close to their division lead. Then you've got 3 owners who've made 1 post all year in the season thread, one of which is leading his division, and 8 other guys who have less than 6 posts all season long as well, all in varying states of their division races, not to mention the wild card. Most, if not all, of these owners have shown they have the time to post in the other leagues here at SC, but have decided for one reason or another not to post about their teams in the CL

People get busy, which is bound to happen and expected, but when 19 of 30 owners can't find the time to post more than a few times over the course of a season, something is fundamentally wrong, especially when they leave evidence of being on the boards in other leagues, and I'm not just talking about trade threads. Seeing how much work Mike puts into this league, I would hope guys could at least pay him back in showing a touch more activity, even if it's just to state how your team did after every other sim. I mean, if it were me, I'd have closed up shop already, so I'll give him props for keeping things going....

[knucklehead7]

IRC contributes very heavily to this. A lot of discussion we used to have on the boards takes place 24/7 in IRC these days, so that might be one reason the league seems less "busy" than it once was.

The effects of IRC were felt more in early to mid-2009, and it's not the reason for the lack of trading/trade talks. There are a lot of owners who used to look forward to the CL sim and respond to it when it was posted that are no longer doing so. There is no doubt that things have changed and I'd rather just have a frank discussion about it so that I understand how to proceed.

[Becks6]

I'll say this, my interest in the CL has not regressed in any way. I still get to the file/reports as quick as I can on sim days. I still check to see how every single player fared during the week. I still check the progress of prospects. I still consider possible trade options. These are things I do every day.

I do feel very badly about the flame-out on the 50 greatest active players thread. I had the idea, but knew I probably couldn't do it on my own. When Buane agreed to do it with me, I felt I could keep up. Then I got busy to the point of having to decide whether I'd use my little free time to run my teams or write a decent little article about a player. I chose my teams. So the truth is that I took on a project that was probably above me. Hopefully I can get back to it here.

I would be crushed if the CL died, and I think all of the owners would be.

[El Guapo]

For me personally, there isnt much to talk about in relation to my team - we are currently in a transitional stage; not quite rebuilding, but not quite able to compete. We have quite a few good pitchers in our system, and I feel well be back on top of our division in no time. I still love the CL, and I still pay attention to my team, exporting frequently; but as I've said, I have kind of written this season off. As it goes for trading, everybody thinks I want the kings ransom for Drader; which is true, however, he is well worth it.

[Toona the Cat]

The way I see it, as long as guys are exporting...I have no problem with guys not posting, to be honest. The trading being down is probably due to owners being a bit more conservative these days, and not taking as much risk.

[hydrostar]

I would be crushed if the CL died, and I think all of the owners would be.

Cosign.

[McExpos]

Personally, my love of Goff eclipses everything else in my life, including eating, dating, sleeping, and earning money. So that's the only reason that my attention to the CL has waned a little bit.

(Actually, I made myself an actual-sized Goff mask using his OOTP picture and wear it in the mirror, Buffalo Bill style. "Would you f*** Goff? I'd f*** Goff. I'd f*** Goff so hard." And then I tuck in my twig and berries and dance.)

.... what was I talking about? Oh, yeah, the Current League.

I won't lie, I have been a little frustrated by the downturn in offense in the league. Since I currently play in Monster-Awful-Death-Bat park, I feel it heavier than most. And the drafting that I've done has also been disappointing - with the exception of Harrison, everyone I took in last year's draft (which I was pretty proud of at the time) fell apart. Like Mike, I'm stuck in a kind of half-and-half situation, which makes it hard to really get invested about rebuilding or being competitive.

But I am by no means going to bail on the league, and I still export when there are changes I want to make to my team. I love the Current League and I hope it lasts forever, and I would certainly be willing to post a little bit more to that effect. My greatest shame in life is that I have never won a Current League World Series, and the league is NOT allowed to go under until I have. NOT ALLOWED.

[DKCecil]

I think I'm the "division leader" bishop mentioned who hasn't posted this year.

I export every sim I need to make changes and I discuss the league and possible trades with people in IRC. I haven't had the urge to make any trades this year, because I'm very comfortable with my team now and for the future. I did a whole bunch of wheeling and dealing my first 4-5 seasons here, and it's resulted in a team that can compete now, as well as a team that has good prospects for the future. There's no reason for me to make trades if I don't need to.

To be honest, I don't post a ton on either board of either league I'm in here (RSL, as well). Some of that has been because of a large class load last quarter, which took a ton of free time away. A lot of it, though, is talking about the league in IRC. I mean, I know people in both leagues like to post how they did after a sim, but I've never seen a point in doing it. I know how I did, and other will know if they look at my results, so I don't do it. If that makes me a terrible person, fine.

[Buane]

The effects of IRC were felt more in early to mid-2009, and it's not the reason for the lack of trading/trade talks. There are a lot of owners who used to look forward to the CL sim and respond to it when it was posted that are no longer doing so. There is no doubt that things have changed and I'd rather just have a frank discussion about it so that I understand how to proceed.

If you took IRC out of the equation, and every comment/discussion that's held there now was posted on the forums, the activity would be explosive. There's a metric ton of CL discussion in IRC most days - perhaps too much, since it soaks up a good bit of discussion that could easily take place in the season thread, or in another thread. But that's just technology - why chat about the Current League post-by-post when you can do it in real time?

That said, IRC does not have many regulars. There are maybe a dozen people you can count to stop by and stay in a given day. That leaves a good number of people who are left "out of the loop" of any IRC discussions we get going. To someone who doesn't pop in IRC once in a while, they'd think there's very little discussion these days.

I try to make a post about my team after every sim, so that people who aren't following the Cincinnati Reds can be reminded just how mediocre we are this year. I think that's a good courtesy to stick to, for all owners.

A good rule of thumb is this: The Commish knows you're active based on how much you export, but the league knows you're active based on how much you post. The league is much more likely to drop you a Trade PM if they know you're active than if they are unsure if you'll respond since you only post about your team once every few weeks at best. I know there are teams who I've wondered about trying to strike up trade talks with because I'm interested in their players or they have salary room or whatever, but I don't follow through or I hesitate because I don't see them on the boards very much, and investing a few weeks in trade talks via PM that might not go anywhere isn't an attractive option.

Compounding the issue is the general hesitancy right now around competing. Teams seem to only have three modes: Division Leader, Firesale, and Stuck-In-The-Middle. The Division Leader is comfortable in his team's position and is generally not looking to make moves (especially because to do so he'd be moving blue-chip prospects). The Firesale team has already sold off their important players, usually at a discount to the first team that contacts them. The stuck-in-the-middle team is usually waiting to see how things break before they commit themselves to either Division Leader mode or Firesale mode.

Ok, there's a lot of generalizing in that post, and its not meant as a commentary on any specific owner. I've had Loek Van Mil on the block since Early June. He's making only $1 Mil this year and had an ERA under 2 out of the bullpen for the longest while. Now, on the eve of the trade deadline, I still have yet to receive one inquiry. Other players have had good players on the block and I believe word of mouth is that there isn't much interest there either.

But that could just be the state of the league. Things are fluid, team situations when it comes to personnel and finances are organic entities. Speaking from the RSL, there were years where the Trade Thread was 16 posts long at the end of the year, and then there were years where the Trade Thread had 16 posts in under 24 hours.

I think it comes down to, as Chris mentioned earlier, with a good chunk of teams not checking in on the forums on a regular basis - especially teams that are competing for postseason spots this year - it has seemed overly quiet. But I know for me (despite all this negative rambling, I swear all my experiences with this league are way way positive) I still love the league and everyone I talk to does as well.

If there are improvements to be made, its with us as owners and not with the league's fundamentals.

[ChipperJones10]

I think one thing that remains true of the CL, and sets it above other OOTP leagues (which I also love), is that it remains the most-challenging, and is stocked with the most savvy and cutthroat owners. I mean, in my experience, it's a tall order to build a winner in the CL. That makes it worthwhile, I think.

That said, my interest in the league is tempered by a few factors:

a) the frustration of trying to build a good team and perpetually falling just short, but that's just my problem as an owner.

b) the ridiculous inflation of talent ratings renders them almost meaningless; I mean, guys aren't good CL players unless they're green across the board. It's very difficult to tell if you add a 7-8-8-8-7 hitter whether he'll OPS .560 for you or bomb 35 homers (hey Khris Davis, go to hell). It makes scouting much harder, and in an artificial way - I'd almost prefer something radical like turning off ratings and leaving only talents visible, so we'd only have performance to go by. I'd also like to see a wider range of players in the league than just guys who are monsters in every category.

c) We're so far into the future now that the sheen of realism has worn off. And the incongruity of putting contemporary amateurs into the draft class doesn't help (though I still prefer that to going completely fictional). It's just, I've never enjoyed fictional leagues as much, and this is becoming a fictional league; it won't be long until we merge with the universe of the Future Forties' League. I don't think there's a solution to this, we're doing it the best way we can.

I don't think I favor any one league over the others I'm in, and I am still very glad to be a part of this one. Having just added Scooter Gennett and Corey Adamson, and having tweaked our park factors to something more realistic, I'm looking forward to seeing where the Dodgers will be in 5 years.

[thebishop]

I think I'm the "division leader" bishop mentioned who hasn't posted this year.

I was actually referring to San Diego (Nykav)

[Buane]

b) the ridiculous inflation of talent ratings renders them almost meaningless; I mean, guys aren't good CL players unless they're green across the board. It's very difficult to tell if you add a 7-8-8-8-7 hitter whether he'll OPS .560 for you or bomb 35 homers. It makes scouting much harder, and in an artificial way - I'd almost prefer something radical like turning off ratings and leaving only talents visible, so we'd only have performance to go by. I'd also like to see a wider range of players in the league than just guys who are monsters in every category.

One thing I've turned over in my head a few times (and have been waiting for "Five Questions With Buane" to float ) is a possible change in the talent scale we use. The line between "useless" and "pretty good" has become so fine that it's buried somewhere within the 7 and 8 ratings out there. Moving to a 1-20 system, or perhaps even a 1-100 system might make that line become a bit more pronounced, especially for the owners who don't have hours every day to comb through player stats and player ratings. Then again, it might only muddle things further.

[Felix]

For me personally, there isnt much to talk about in relation to my team - we are currently in a transitional stage; not quite rebuilding, but not quite able to compete. We have quite a few good pitchers in our system, and I feel well be back on top of our division in no time. I still love the CL, and I still pay attention to my team, exporting frequently; but as I've said, I have kind of written this season off. As it goes for trading, everybody thinks I want the kings ransom for Drader; which is true, however, he is well worth it.

I'm about in the same situation. Our run as a dominating team is over and we're quickly entering a rebuilding phase (hell, we'd be in one right now if people would actually ask about players in trades), so posting about my team isn't exactly the most exciting thing in the world. I still try to update the season thread on my team weekly, although I definitely forget sometimes.

I won't lie, I have been a little frustrated by the downturn in offense in the league. Since I currently play in Monster-Awful-Death-Bat park, I feel it heavier than most. And the drafting that I've done has also been disappointing - with the exception of Harrison, everyone I took in last year's draft (which I was pretty proud of at the time) fell apart. Like Mike, I'm stuck in a kind of half-and-half situation, which makes it hard to really get invested about rebuilding or being competitive.

But I am by no means going to bail on the league, and I still export when there are changes I want to make to my team.

Agreed on all points. The death of all things offense is pretty damn frustrating, especially when it results in people like Abe Ruiz hitting below the mendoza line. On top of that, the death of Brett Jackson is pretty damn depressing, but it is what it is. My interest in the league is as it's always been, and the CL will always be close to my heart, but the state of my organization isn't exactly one for optimism (which I can't really complain about because the run my team's had has been a blast and all good things come to an end, so please don't think of this as me getting pissed because my run is over )

b) the ridiculous inflation of talent ratings renders them almost meaningless; I mean, guys aren't good CL players unless they're green across the board. It's very difficult to tell if you add a 7-8-8-8-7 hitter whether he'll OPS .560 for you or bomb 35 homers (hey Khris Davis, go to hell). It makes scouting much harder, and in an artificial way - I'd almost prefer something radical like turning off ratings and leaving only talents visible, so we'd only have performance to go by. I'd also like to see a wider range of players in the league than just guys who are monsters in every category.

Fully agreed, but that's got to be expected with any league that's been running as long as the CL has, especially with the increased injuries. They suck at times (especially in the RSL when certain teams just get picked on by a spiteful commish ), but I really agree with Greg that it plays an important part in the player development model that OOTP has. Perhaps that's something to look at in the future, but that's never a really popular decision.

It seems like one injury in the CL has much more of an impact than in other leagues. If you lose a player, there's a good chance your opponents won't lose anyone, which really makes it tough to compete against. This doesn't really have to do with the enjoyment of the league, as it's always more fun to have healthy players, but it's just something that I've thought about lately (especially given the contrast between the CL and RSL).

[Jontler]

It never occurred to me there was a problem. It's a very Cleveland-centric worldview I have, though. If it doesn't involve Cleveland or the AL Central, odds are I'm only going to give it a passing look every few sims.

I'm like DK in that I don't post after every sim because I know what I've done, and since I'm one of those people who is in IRC for basically every waking moment of every day, the notion that there might be waning interest in the CL literally never occurred to me.

As far as trading with active users goes, I definitely pay attention to who is on the boards - but not by how they post. I often look at the owner's profile and see when they've last logged in. If it's not recently, I usually don't bother, but if it's within the last few days then I'll take a shot at it.

I'll try to make a point to post more in the forums. I'm always excited about my team, and frankly not completely sure what we're all about this year. Are we a contender? Are we not? When is Alex Meyer going to regress? WAIT I DIDN'T SAY THAT SOMEONE TRADE FOR HIM HE'S AMAZING!

I don't know, though. I'm with Greg for the most part. IRC is where I thrive, and I much prefer to talk about the CL in realtime than post by post.

It's much easier to deflect the insults from Felix when they're coming rapid fire than post by post anyway.

[ChipperJones10]

When you guys are talking about IRC, are you talking about the chat room hosted on this website - or are you using 3rd-party software like mIRC? I've logged into the chat on this site just a few times; I should get in the loop more on IRC because it's so much easier to talk about trades, etc. in realtime; the PM turnaround time can be a drag.

[Felix]

When you guys are talking about IRC, are you talking about the chat room hosted on this website - or are you using 3rd-party software like mIRC? I've logged into the chat on this site just a few times; I should get in the loop more on IRC because it's so much easier to talk about trades, etc. in realtime; the PM turnaround time can be a drag.

Most of us use a third party program (like YChat, mIRC, etc.), but the chat room hosted on this site accesses the same chat. It's just a java applet that enters #bbsc on irc.simcentral.net, which you can also access through any third party IRC program.

And yeah, IRC is awesome for trade talks (and league discussion in general).. unless you try doing them publicly outside of a query, which often results in nothing positive

[Jontler]

And yeah, IRC is awesome for trade talks (and league discussion in general).. unless you try doing them publicly outside of a query, which often results in nothing positive

Spoken from both perspectives.

I figured that when the initial IRC thread came out, it would be clear to those who knew what IRC was that they could use any app they wanted to access it and that the web chat would be in place for those who didn't really know what they were doing. Perhaps I was wrong.

That said, I encourage all to stop by frequently. There are certainly dead times of the day, but the more people that come, the more chat there'll be!

That is not to take away from the forum, though. There is a certain formality and etiquette on the forums that, um, just does not exist in the IRC channel. Like, at all.

ETA: A frequent topic of discussion in the channel is "Is the CL sim up yet?" or, alternatively, "Are the CL reports updated yet?" Just sayin, the CL owns all for channel interest.

[Felix]

And on the forums, you can't hear about the deep things that happen in Josh's personal life... especially with his RTTS character.

Wait, maybe I shouldn't mention that.. might turn people away from joining.

[knucklehead7]

If you took IRC out of the equation, and every comment/discussion that's held there now was posted on the forums, the activity would be explosive. There's a metric ton of CL discussion in IRC most days - perhaps too much, since it soaks up a good bit of discussion that could easily take place in the season thread, or in another thread. But that's just technology - why chat about the Current League post-by-post when you can do it in real time?

There is no doubt that IRC has affected the posting. The point I was making with my comment is that we saw the real effect of that last year. The downturn in activity over the last few months has been beyond the drop-off that occurred when people started using IRC, and I think some of the comments in this thread acknowledge that. I knew that I should have articulated that point better about two minutes after making my post.

b) the ridiculous inflation of talent ratings renders them almost meaningless; I mean, guys aren't good CL players unless they're green across the board. It's very difficult to tell if you add a 7-8-8-8-7 hitter whether he'll OPS .560 for you or bomb 35 homers (hey Khris Davis, go to hell). It makes scouting much harder, and in an artificial way - I'd almost prefer something radical like turning off ratings and leaving only talents visible, so we'd only have performance to go by. I'd also like to see a wider range of players in the league than just guys who are monsters in every category.

I've tried hard the last few drafts (five-six?) to tone the ratings down a bit. It can't be a drastic thing or happen all at once though, or the drafts would be meaningless. That said, all leagues have different talent levels -- it would be pretty boring if we had to deal with the same thing across the board.

And I recognize that it can be frustrating when players with good ratings don't perform, but I think it happens in every league. Does it happen in the CL more than other leagues? Honestly, I'm not sure.

c) We're so far into the future now that the sheen of realism has worn off. And the incongruity of putting contemporary amateurs into the draft class doesn't help (though I still prefer that to going completely fictional). It's just, I've never enjoyed fictional leagues as much, and this is becoming a fictional league; it won't be long until we merge with the universe of the Future Forties' League. I don't think there's a solution to this, we're doing it the best way we can.

This is true and is the thing that all leagues based on real players face. No matter what, at some point you're going to be beyond recognizable players. If this isn't someone's bag of tea, there really is nothing that can be done other than joining a league that starts in real time and enjoying it until it hits the same wall.

So that's the only reason that my attention to the CL has waned a little bit.

I'm not going to lie about it, your waning interest has kind of stung a bit. You were always one of the people that seemed to really look forward to the sims, so it's been pretty noticeable that it's dropped off. I don't want you forcing interest though as that's not really a solution.

I won't lie, I have been a little frustrated by the downturn in offense in the league. Since I currently play in Monster-Awful-Death-Bat park, I feel it heavier than most.

Duly noted on the offense. As far as your park factors go though, why don't you just adjust them?

If that makes me a terrible person, fine.

It doesn't and it wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad. I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement as I know every owner is different. Jerry is a good owner who rarely if ever posts, but I know that he's active and I'm never concerned. But when someone has been an active poster in the past and stops, it does make me wonder. And if anything, some of the comments in this thread have supported that feeling. As I mentioned above though, I don't want people posting just for the sake of posting or feeling obligated.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. The ideas to tweak the way we view ratings (turning off actual ratings or using a different scale) is certainly intriguing.